Liang Shanbo Responds to Xie Daoyun's Question

There is also a quiet room inside Wansong Academy.

At this moment, Meng Wenlang, Xie Xuan, and Liang Shanbo were sitting in the quiet room. There was another blue silk curtain set up, behind which sat Xie Daoyun, who was dignified and elegant. Her maid Qingxiao and her nanny Aqi stood on either side of her.

Xie Xuan and Meng Wenlang first reminisced about the past. Recalling his time listening to Meng Wenlang's lectures, Xie Xuan was quite moved, saying that he had benefited greatly from the teacher's instruction. Meng Wenlang replied with a smile, "You flatter me too much." The two then discussed recent events in the court, Xie An's current situation, and the military situation in the north.

After catching up, Xie Xuan turned to Liang Shanbo: "Mr. Meng speaks highly of you, and Lord Zhu of Qiantang also praised you highly in front of me. Now that we have the opportunity to meet, I would like to ask you a question. Would you be willing?"

This is what is meant by "examining and discussing matters."

Xie Xuan was skilled in philosophical discussions, and Xie Daoyun, who was present, had an even higher level of understanding of metaphysics.

Liang Shanbo bowed and said, "Shanbo would not dare to refuse your invitation. Please thank you, sir, for bestowing this inscription upon me."

Xie Xuan's gaze lingered on Liang Shanbo's face for a moment before he slowly uttered the question he had prepared beforehand: "When the imperial court selects officials, should it prioritize talent and learning, or family background?"

Clearly, Xie Xuan intended to test Liang Shanbo, who came from a poor family, with this question, not only to examine his knowledge and eloquence, but also to see how he would face his background.

This question was tricky for Liang Shanbo. If he simply spoke out for the poor, he would appear narrow-minded; if he meekly defended social status, he would lose his integrity.

Liang Shanbo lowered his head slightly, remained silent for a few breaths, then raised his eyes and spoke in a clear voice: "Thank you for your question, sir. It concerns the very foundation of the nation, and I dare not speak presumptuously. However, I believe that if this question is merely a debate about the priority of 'talent' versus 'family background,' then it has already fallen into a low-level trap."

Xie Xuan raised an eyebrow slightly: "Oh?"

Liang Shanbo continued, "I have heard that when a craftsman builds a house, he must first determine the materials to use. Pine wood is tough and is used for beams; elm wood is fine and is used for window frames; paulownia wood is light and delicate and is used for zithers and lutes."

When craftsmen select materials, they do not ask whether the wood grows on a sunny slope or in a shady valley; they only ask whether its grain is straight, its texture is hard, and its properties are suitable for great use. If a craftsman sees a pine tree growing in a secluded valley and discards it, that is the craftsman's fault, not the pine's.

The imperial court's selection of officials is like a craftsman building a house. Whether or not the materials are available depends on the scholar himself; whether or not the materials are used depends on the court's laws and regulations. If the court only considers family background and abandons the talents of poor families in a secluded valley, then it is not the misfortune of the poor families, but the misfortune of the court.

In the past, Zhuge Liang lived a simple life in Nanyang, a commoner. If judged solely by family background, how could he have become the Chancellor of Shu Han? Yet Liu Bei visited him three times at his thatched cottage, seeking his talent, not his social standing. Therefore, they were able to divide the empire into three kingdoms, establishing a tripartite balance of power.

Xie Xuan nodded slightly upon hearing this. The metaphor was cleverly used. It wasn't a defense of himself, but a plea for the court's interests; it wasn't a complaint of grievances, but a discussion of reason.

He smiled and said to Liang Shanbo, "What you said about craftsmen choosing materials regardless of their origin is indeed reasonable. However, I have another question: If there are two people of equal talent, one from a high-ranking family and the other from humble beginnings, and the court had to choose only one, which one should it choose? If the high-ranking family is chosen, the poor scholar will be heartbroken; if the poor scholar is chosen, the high-ranking family will be resentful. How can this situation be resolved?"

This question is even more tricky, precisely addressing a gap in Liang Shanbo's argument. When talents are equal, social status becomes the only variable; how would you choose?

Behind the blue silk curtain, a glint of light flickered in Xie Daoyun's eyes.

After a moment's thought, Liang Shanbo replied, "The brilliance of Mr. Xie's question lies in the phrase 'equal talent and learning.' However, I believe that no two pieces of timber in the world are entirely the same. Pine trees have their resilience, and cypress trees have their fragrance. The so-called 'equal talent and learning' merely means that one's knowledge of the verses on the exam paper is comparable."

But the imperial court selects officials based on more than just their knowledge of classical texts. Courage, character, integrity, and adaptability are all qualities that can be discerned. If those in charge determine merit based on classical texts, it is not a matter of the poor versus the rich being a contest between the poor and the rich.

Therefore, I believe that when talents and learning are comparable, it is precisely at this point that the court's ability to judge character is most effectively tested. Rather than asking "Who should be chosen?", it would be better to ask "How can their abilities be distinguished?" If the court can observe not only their literary skills but also their character, insight, courage, and strategic acumen, then their merits will become clear; why then should it be concerned with family background?

Xie Xuan was taken aback, then couldn't help but laugh, "What a fine example of 'lazy governance by the steward'! You've directly undermined my dilemma."

Behind the blue silk curtain, Xie Daoyun was slightly moved.

She had seen people from poor families lose their composure on this topic, either becoming indignant and sharp-tongued, or flattering and belittling their own background.

But Liang Shanbo, at this moment, was calm and composed. He not only compared the matter of "selecting officials" to "craftsmen building houses," but also, under Xie Xuan's tricky questioning, he skillfully transformed the "dilemma" into "the way of recognizing people," concealing his sharp wit within gentleness.

This young man was only sixteen years old, yet his words carried a composure that even she couldn't help but admire. It wasn't the composure cultivated from childhood by those from wealthy families, but rather a certain confidence that naturally arose from the depths of his knowledge.

She couldn't resist testing him, and her clear, gentle voice came through the blue silk curtain: "Liang Shanbo, you just said that the court should select officials based on talent and learning, with family background as a secondary consideration. But what I have seen is that those who have talent but no one recommends them are buried in obscurity for life; while those who have family background but no real learning occupy high positions because of their fathers' or brothers' names."

This is no longer just a question of whether the imperial court will choose or not. Even if the court is willing to select talent, will that talent truly be able to reach the court?

This question no longer dwells on "which material to choose," but goes deeper: poor people don't even have the chance to be seen, so what is the basis of your artisan's material selection theory?

Liang Shanbo turned around, cupped his hands towards the tent, and said, "Madam, I dare not evade your question. Indeed, even if a poor family has talent and learning, without someone to recommend him or any connections, he often lives a life without ever seeing the light of day. This is the truth, and I dare not embellish it."

If one doesn't travel because the mountains are high and the roads are long, then the road will never be passable. If one doesn't study because it's difficult for those from poor families to leave, then those families will never have anyone to learn.

In the past, Zhu Maichen carried firewood to study, and Ni Kuan used a hoe to carry scriptures; neither of them made it to the imperial court smoothly. They walked slower and harder than others, but they eventually made it. And within the court, there are always those who are unwilling to use mediocre talents.

For example, if Mr. Meng were to sit here today and recommend a student from a humble background, that would be what I mean by "the courage to recognize talent." This courage doesn't reside in the imperial edict, but in the heart of every individual.

My wife asked me if this talent could reach the imperial court. My answer was: If one person can't go, two people will go together; if one generation can't go, two generations will continue. There will always be a day when we reach it. But if we give up just because we can't go, then we are abandoning ourselves first.

If a person abandons themselves, even a craftsman who desires to acquire materials will find nowhere to glean them.

After setting up the curtain, Xie Daoyun paused, stunned. She knew that her question had struck a nerve with the poor boy, who was powerless to refute it. Yet this young man had calmly accepted this pain, without flinching or becoming indignant. Instead, he spoke these words with an almost stubborn gentleness.

This is not just eloquence, but also integrity.

She suddenly felt she couldn't let him finish answering so easily, so she continued, "You just said that if a person gives up on themselves, even if a craftsman desires to take it, there will be no material to take. Then let me ask you, if that craftsman knows that there is material in the secluded valley, and taking it will surely invite criticism, or even endanger his own life, should the craftsman choose not to take it?"

This question takes a different direction. The previous question was "Can the materials reach the craftsmen?", while this question is "Are the craftsmen willing to bear the cost for the materials?" It shifts from the scholar's insistence to the responsibility of the employer.

After a moment's thought, Liang Shanbo replied, "When a craftsman builds a house, both the craftsman and the house survive when the house is completed; when the house is destroyed, both the craftsman and the house perish. If a craftsman knows there is material in a secluded valley but dares not take it for fear of gossip, even if the house is built, it will be a mediocre house, and the craftsman will ultimately be nothing more than a mediocre craftsman. But if a craftsman knows that taking the material will be criticized, yet still takes it, this is not recklessness, but responsibility."

When King Gaozong of Yin employed Fu Yue, the world criticized him, but Gaozong remained unmoved and eventually gained a wise prime minister. When King Wen of Zhou brought Jiang Shang back, the feudal lords laughed at him, but King Wen did not change his mind and eventually gained the world.

Throughout history, those who achieve great things have always been troubled by public opinion. Yet, a master craftsman, when selecting materials, considers only their usability, not the praise or criticism of others. If one discards materials simply because public opinion is fearsome, then it is not public opinion that is fearsome, but the craftsman's own heart.

Therefore, I believe that we must be selective! It is better to suffer slander for choosing the right person than to discard a talented individual out of self-preservation. This is the backbone of those who employ people.

After he finished speaking, the quiet room fell silent.

Meng Wenlang stroked his beard without saying a word, his eyes filled with satisfaction.

After setting up the tent, Xie Daoyun suddenly had a strange thought: If one day this young man were to stand in the imperial court and face those deeply entrenched powerful clans and long-standing problems, would he also calmly say "I shall make a choice" as he does now?

"Okay." Her voice came from behind the curtain, just one word, but it carried a lot of weight.

Xie Xuan secretly admired him. This Liang Shanbo, in his conversation, spoke with reason and tact. He and his sister pressed him with increasingly probing questions, but the young man answered them calmly, finally concluding with the saying, "I would rather be slandered for choosing talent than abandon talent for the sake of saving myself." This young man possessed profound wisdom and his demeanor was no less than that of a renowned scholar.

He suddenly realized that he might not be able to beat this sixteen-year-old boy in a philosophical debate, and even his older sister might not be able to beat him.